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Wellbutrin (bupropion hcl)

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  #16  
Old 09-29-09, 10:24 AM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

hold on , what about dopamine.. I think this occurs in higher doses of wellbutrin. Mensa you mention snri's and not wellbutrin as etc... in slander. Wellbutrin is a dnri and snri's are ( pristiq, effexor, cymbalta) and for that matter since your a med student and have that nice little diagram which is better as a facilitator for adhd , ( wellbutrin or venflaxine or cymbalta ?) Do snri's provide neuroprotection and or assist in reuptake of ne and da as well as s?
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Old 10-01-09, 11:57 PM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

A'ight, so here's the deal - both Wellbutrin and the amphetamines work on both norepi and dopamine - I was only using the one for ease of understanding...sorry!

The SNRIs, to my knowledge, do not do anything much to serotonin (which would be bad for me, as I am especially sensitive to serotonin toxicity). Serotonin is pretty much only affected by SSRIs. I assume that you could combine the SSRIs with the SNRIs, but why bother unless one class doesn't work for you...?

hollywood, I'm not sure what you're asking about in regards to "neuroprotection"... The only 'protection' I'm aware of is not ODing on the meds.

And as for the diagrams, I'll explain better:

Amphetamines stimulate the release of both DA and NE - like a positive number in math. SNRIs prevent the degradation of DA and NE, so they're like a double negative in math, which equals a positive. So they both are positive, meaning they stimulate DA and NE release.

Lemme know if that's not clear enough. I'm trying...:/
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Old 10-02-09, 04:01 PM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

so if they prevent the degradation of ne and da and give some serotonin to boot then they basically prevent your body from depleting it's stores of ne and da and boost serotonin as well. So theoretically they do kind of neuroprotect in a sense?
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Old 12-04-09, 11:40 PM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

SNRI's do work with serotonin. Basically SNRI's are SSRI's but throwing norepinephrine into the mix. seronin reuptake is inhibited there too.
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Old 12-05-09, 12:14 AM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by albino226 View Post
The SNRIs, to my knowledge, do not do anything much to serotonin (which would be bad for me, as I am especially sensitive to serotonin toxicity). Serotonin is pretty much only affected by SSRIs. I assume that you could combine the SSRIs with the SNRIs, but why bother unless one class doesn't work for you...?
No. Venlafaxine (Effexor) and desvenlafaxine (Pristiq) act about 10 times more powerfully on serotonin than they do on norepinephrine.

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Originally Posted by albino226
SNRIs prevent the degradation of DA and NE, so they're like a double negative in math, which equals a positive. So they both are positive, meaning they stimulate DA and NE release.
SNRIs have a negligible effect on DA. It's virtually nonexistant. Bupropion is pretty much the only antidepressant that is of any value for treating ADHD.
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  #21  
Old 12-06-09, 07:18 AM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

Amphetamines actually have a significantly more complex pharmacodynamic than just binding to DAT transporters and stimulating the release of NA and DA from the presynaptic terminal.

Regardless, all you need to know is that DA and NA are stimulated by amphetamines.

Bupropion inhibits the reuptake of these.

Therefore, not only are you preventing them from being cleared from the synaptic cleft, you are increasing the amount released into it.

It's pretty clear that this should have a synergistic effect. Its fairly likely that bupropion may potentiate amphetamines.
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Old 12-07-09, 09:59 AM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

so in the event that you adding wellbutrin helps you and your adhd symptoms tremendously in addition to your stimulants but you find yourself a bit stuck in the same thought pattern but not down and depressive as before , what then do you do in presence of this? In my opinion since wellbutrin is helping ... me in this case, then the answer lies in the addition of some other med to help the other work better but help with the other symptom experienced ..... ? I was thinking intuniv since it helps balance the fight or flight response or a tiny dose of ssri?
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Old 12-12-09, 11:21 AM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

am i a jerk if i just take what the doctor tells me and wait to see if it helps(kidding)

im on wellbutrin and adderrall, just recently started wellbutrin and i like the affects i notice after they happen as opposed to sitting around and trying to figure them out like when i started adderal
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Old 11-19-10, 12:09 AM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

This is an interesting discussion...and I agree with everyone about the complimentary effects these two molecules have on each other. However, what i would add is that bupropion is what is considered a "dirty" drug while dextro-amphetamine is the stereoisomer of amphetamine that is more selective and thus labeled "cleaner".
Interestingly, Ive taken both of these independently and combined...in different orders and different dosages...and these terms of dirty and clean can really even be felt...im sure most of you know what i mean. bupropion doesnt seem to have a rewarding stimulatory effect that is dependent on the dosage...but what will happen after a few hours is a state of increased "sketchy", paranoid behavior. Once, i took 800mg in a matter of hours and I literally could not formulate words to my girlfriend. It was quite scary and embarrassing to say the least.
However, amphetamines and especially the dextro-isomer...are very efficient at crossing the BB barrier and thus you can sometimes get a rewarding effect within 10-15 minutes after oral ingestion. The way these drugs works have been suggested above so I really dont have much to add to that...the whole dopamine/norepinephrine hypothesis of drug addiction is supported by my findings as well.
What I would like though is a discussion into some of the "dirty" effects of bupropion...specifically its main difference from amphetamine...and thats is its characteristic ability to antagonize the acetylcholine-nicotinergic receptors (this is why it is also a smoking cessation drug). Amphetamines actually do not antagonize these receptors but stimulate them. Thats why most people increase smoking while on amphetamines.
Acetylcholine is a very diverse and wide-acting neurotransmitter in the brain and entire body and thats why I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this...
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  #25  
Old 01-10-11, 11:46 AM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

I (think I) am following everyone's assessment of the theoretical complementary action of Wellbutin and stims combined. However, I have read a few posts on this forum from people saying that the wellbutrin actually killed the effects of their stims. Any thoughts on this? Anyone else have personal experiences?
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Old 01-17-11, 05:42 PM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

I think that there is some confusion here. Wellbutrin is NOT an SNRI. Its and NDRI (Norepinephrine and Dopamine Reuptake inhibitor). Unlike SNRI's like effexor, wellbutrin doesnt have an effect on serotonin. SNRI's inhibit reuptake of serotonin much more than norepinephrine, and have no effect on dopamine (at least to my knowledge). Wellbutrin, on the other hand has a strong effect on norepinephrine, a relatively weak effect on dopamine, and no effect on serotonin.
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  #27  
Old 11-28-11, 10:55 PM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helloworld! View Post
I (think I) am following everyone's assessment of the theoretical complementary action of Wellbutin and stims combined. However, I have read a few posts on this forum from people saying that the wellbutrin actually killed the effects of their stims. Any thoughts on this? Anyone else have personal experiences?
The anecdotal evidence going either way is equivocal and I think depends on a number of factors typically unstated. There are scant studies about the combination -- pretty much the only that exist are those looking at bupropion + methamphetamine in meth abusers. Those studies pretty much all report that bupropion reduces the stimulant effects. On the other hand, many on this forum have reported that the two drugs are synergistic. Both are no doubt true.

I want to challenge the apparent theoretical consensus here about the psychopharmacological interaction of the two drugs. Bupropion inhibits the re-uptake of dopamine (DA) by binding to the dopamine transport molecule (DAT). At all doses, amphetamine also binds to DAT, resulting in a similar inhibition in DA reuptake. At sufficiently high doses, amphetamine induces the release of DA. It does this through two steps: first, it diffuses into DA vesicles and disrupts the proton gradient established across the vesicle wall, in effect making the wall leak DA into the cytoplasm; second, it reverses the mechanism of DAT such that it carries DA out from the cytoplasm into the synapse. DA is normally carried out by a protein called VMAT2, to which amphetamine binds (by itself this would decrease the transmission of DA, were it not for the other effects, because the amphetamine is occupying the transport molecule that usually facilitates the secretion of DA). How does amphetamine reverse the mechanism of DAT?

There are two hypotheses (perhaps both correct): according to the first, the mere presence of DA in the cytoplasm induces the change in the DAT; according to the second, amphetamine directly interacts with DAT to carry DA from inside the vesicle (not just the cytoplasm) itself into the synapse. Why do I bring this up? Because bupropion should disrupt the mechanism of amphetamine described in the first hypothesis by occupying the DAT molecules, while it should probably have less of an effect on the mechanism described in the second hypothesis since in that case, the DAT has been phosphorylated and is less susceptible to bupropion binding. In any event, the mechanism by which amphetamine releases DA relies on the DAT, which means that by occupying the DAT, bupropion will both inhibit the re-uptake and inhibit the release of DA. If amphetamine is still bound to VMAT2 at this point, the release of DA will be less than without any drug at all. This suggests that if this combination is used, the bupropion should be taken later, when the amphetamine starts to wear off, but before it has worn off completely.

Of course, this entire preceding line of reasoning depends on the assumption that bupropion and amphetamine work in the exact same locations in the brain. Amphetamine is a very specific drug -- in some regions of the brain (e.g., D2 memory circuits in the hippocampus, where incidentally bupropion is somewhat active), it has no effect whatsoever on dopaminergic transmission. To the extent that they effect different areas of the brain, they should have a synergistic effect independent of the interaction discussed above.

It is probably the case that bupropion is synergistic with some of the effects of amphetamine, while disrupting other effects. The experiences of people in this forum suggest that it can help the amphetamine last longer (though it is unclear to me if this is primarily due to inhibition of DAT, inhibition of CYP2D6, or some other mechanism). Studies have identified cases where bupropion primarily interferes with certain effects of amphetamine -- for example, bupropion completely blocks the ability of amphetamine to reverse the akinetic effects of reserpine, which raises questions that I won't address here but should be apparent to people who know a bit about the psychopharmacology of reserpine (which is also much more complicated than most people understand it to be). Amphetamine and bupropion have exactly opposite effects on the ratio of dopamine metabolites to dopamine in the striatum of persons pre-treated with haloperidol, and the various explanations offered for this phenomenon are complicated, to say the least.

All of the above aside, there are other mechanisms of interaction between the two drugs. Bupropion inhibits the CYP2D6 enzyme, which is involved in the metabolism of amphetamine. This means that by taking bupropion, you will be increasing the amount of time the amphetamine is in your blood. It seems that this effect is much more pronounced with 300 mg of bupropion than with 150 mg. The effect bupropion has on nicotine receptors undoubtedly interacts with the effects of amphetamine, particularly relating to things like feelings of craving. Perhaps through this mechanism, a recent study showed that bupropion blunts any anxiogenic (anxiety causing) effects of amphetamine (at close to the exact rate that it blunts the anxiogenic effects of nicotine...).

My point is simply that it is more complicated than simply "amphetamine induces the release of DA and bupropion inhibits the reuptake of DA, therefore they have a synergistic effect." There are remarkably few studies on the combination, which makes it all the more difficult to understand. I suspect that the efficacy of the combination depends on the dosages of each, the interval of time in between taking the amphetamine and the bupropion, and many very individual factors (relating to things like variations in metabolism, and to particularly troublesome symptoms). If you are interested in this combination, it may take some experimentation to find the correct dosage & time interval. For people who take or have taken this combination, I'd be very interested to hear what dose and time interval was used, and which symptoms were most affected.
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  #28  
Old 01-12-12, 01:17 AM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

Edit: I didn't read michealbuth's post before typing the post below but I agree with his conclusions ( he got nice and technical lol and I was to lazy to go that indepth)

Also michealbuth will you post me your reference/s please i was looking for some that provide this sort of information





It weakly inhibits the uptake(not to be confused with reuptake) of dopamine and norepinephrine also which hasn't been mentioned yet.
(according to Glaxosmithkline, also i know that some sources indicate that it is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor as well but i could not find one where this is stated fast enough so below is based on glaxosmithkline's info)

It also is a reuptake inhibitor of norepinephrine(its actually one of the metabolites that do this)

So I say that it would synergistic effect with levo-amphetamines (causes significant increases in norepinephrine) but i would expect that
dextro-amphetamines(primarily increases dopamine levels) effectiveness to be slightly decreased due to the inhibition of dopamine uptake.

So i would assume that someone on adderall(contains l-amp and d-amp) may feel a prolonged effectiveness due to the decrease in NE reuptake.

But i would also assume that someone on dexedrine(d-amp) or desoxyn(d-methamp) would feel decreased effectiveness due to the decreased neuronal uptake of dopamine.


Also trust me... I'm a pharmacy student (first year) lol

i just wanted to say that because of the med student lol


References:

Wellbutrin SR package Insert via GSK website http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_wellbutrinSR.pdf

The Journal of Neuroscience, February 1995, 75(2): 1309-1317
Hippocampus Norepinephrine, Caudate Dopamine and Serotonin, and’
Behavioral Responses to the Stereoisomers of Amphetamine and
Methamphetamine
Ronald Kuczenski,’ David S. Segal,’ Arthur K. Cho,2 and William Melega

Last edited by dominil; 01-12-12 at 01:29 AM..
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Old 04-07-13, 10:35 PM
MichaelBluth MichaelBluth is offline
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

Hi all, sorry to resurrect an old thread, after I posted here I got distracted with other things (ADHD...) and different projects. Looking back through my records, I have a zotero library in which all the citations I found possibly relevant to the above discussion including literally everything that has ever been published that is available electronically (and some stuff that isn't that I got the library to scan and email me) about interaction effects (not much, strangely). If you have zotero and are interested I could share it. I also have most of the articles saved in a folder in my dropbox which I'd be happy to share, just message me.
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Old 02-02-14, 04:22 PM
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Re: Bupropion HCl and Amphetamine combination produces a neutral affect?

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Originally Posted by Well-letitbe View Post
Iv been wanting to post this thought that's been going through my head about a week after I started Bupropion SR after an unsuccessful XL trial. I'm not your savey scientist when it comes to neurology but I enjoy reading up on the "possible" idea that depression, adhd, social phobia... ect are caused by a neural imbalance of neurotransmitters. (Serotonin, Dopamine.. ect ect). It has kinda bothered me how amphetamines work in conjuction with Bupropion and vice versa. With Bupropion being an NDRI or Norepinephrine Dopamine Re-uptake Inhibitor and Amphetamine, a sympathomimetic agent which mimics the actions of adrenaline by the presynaptic release of dopamine and norepinephrine, it bugs me to think that since Bupropion prevents re-uptake of Dopamine and norepinephrine and how when amphetamine enters the synaptic cleft and dumps excess dopamine through the way of re-uptake, wouldn't the bupropion cancel out the effects of amphetamine by preventing its re-uptake, which in turn wouldn't alow for more dopamine to be released? And PLEASE by all means correct me if I'm either clueless or somewhat on the right path.... :P
FINALLY! I found someone similar to me We are both on the same meds and dosage! Except I also have klonapin 1mg for as needed panic attacks but told to take half tab daily with my wellbutrin and adderall but I wonder if klonapin cancels the effects too? seems to. How long have u been on ur meds? I've been on the wellbutrin 100mg 2xdaily for about 3 weeks and my adderall xr 30 mg for 10 years
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