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  #16  
Old 09-25-18, 12:58 AM
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Re: can welbutrin make vyvanse weaker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesH View Post
I don't have any clinical studies on hand right now, and I'm too busy to search for any (I'm using ADDF to procrastinate right now!). But it's pretty common clinical consensus.
Okay, well, since you're busy to find studies, I've looked through them for you. The consensus is that amphetamine stimulants cause neurotoxicity, and that it isn't a safe-long term therapy. Here is one recent study: (http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/315/1/91.long). In fact, I'm beginning to think that you're being a little disingenious with your claims, because I can't find a single study that claims stimulants are effective in the long term. Before the 2000s, the only claim that was made is that they're not sure if stimulants cause long-term damage, as they hadn't had the information at the time.

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Originally Posted by CharlesH View Post
Where is your evidence that 20% decrease in dopamine transporter makes a clinically significant difference? And even if it does make a difference, that can probably be managed simply by increasing the dosage of medication. And what's your point? Of course long-term administration of any psych med will lead to some long-term changes in brain chemistry. Are people just not supposed to take any psych meds then?
Like I said before -- I don't have evidence on how much a 20% difference can effect the patient. I gave you my theory, and showed you how it worked in Parkinson's. What I can tell you is that Patients with severe ADD/ADHD have 70% more dopamine transporters than non-ADD/ADHD patients, and less-severe cases can range in the 20-50% more than the non-ADD/ADHD patient. So, if 20% more dopamine transporters in someone can possibly classify them as being ADD/ADHD -- I'd say that's a big difference. Also, there's a glaring thing that you seem to have missed from my original argument -- the percentage grows the longer the treatment. Perhaps you didn't read the study -- and perhaps you didn't see that the study went over the course of 12 months, and that the researches suggested that if the study had gone on longer, the transporters would have increased in numbers.

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Originally Posted by CharlesH View Post
What is your overall point that you're trying to get across? It seems like you are very against stimulants, and that you're trying to get people to join your cause. I'm not going to pretend that there are no downsides or risks to stimulant treatment, but you seem to be so committed to painting a one-sided negative narrative, and I just want to know why.
So, this isn't really an argument. You're just smearing me. I have no cause. I use stimulants. I don't think you actually remember what this conversation is about -- probably because stimulants actually worsen memory in the long term (I have a study for this as well
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...014.00038/full). Someone said Vyvanse is gold, and should be treasured. I'm simply putting information out so that people aren't deluded by this dangerous sentiment.
I'm not painting it in one way. I'm giving you the honest truth. Stimulants give you focus. For about two years, until you have to increase your dosage -- and create more dopamine transporters that permanently effect your focus, memory, and motivation. Not to mention that at higher dosages, you are exposed to risk of heart disease (study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4992783/). Sure the focus is good, but it's temporary, and harmful in the long run. You want to know why I'm telling the truth? Perhaps it is because I'm honest. Perhaps it is because I took the time to educate myself on the subject. Perhaps there are people who die from therapeutic stimulant use. Perhaps there is an epidemic. Perhaps I've never seen someone endure long term stimulant use and not regret it. I'm not being political here. My intention was to simply explain how Wellbutrin and Vyvanse work together, and the dangers of using either of these drugs at such a high dose as the OP. You know, you can't use the "I just don't know why you're bein' so mean!" against me, because that doesn't mean anything if I can give you a link to a certified study.

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Originally Posted by CharlesH View Post
Anxiety is the #1 most common symptom that patients present with to a psychiatrist. And pretty much every ADHD patient struggles with anxiety. Why wouldn't they? Their ADHD has caused them to fail constantly in all aspects of life. Are you saying that only the calm, non-anxious ADHD patients should get ADHD medication?
I'm saying that people with anxiety shouldn't use stimulant medication. It's simply not healthy in the long run. Stimulants work not only by supplying dopamine to the brain, but also norepinephrine. Do you know how anxiety is caused? High levels of norepinephrine are supplied to the brain, and cortisol too. If a psychiatrist gives ADD/ADHD meds to a patient that has anxiety, they should know that they are going to make the anxiety worse. I also think it's unethical to prescribe them those stimulants when there are options for ADD/ADHD that actually reduce anxiety.

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Originally Posted by CharlesH View Post
It is exceedingly rare for schizo and ADHD to be comorbid. Yes, there are some exceptions, but it's just not common enough to justify denying ADHD patients the right to ever try stimulant medication. ADHD is neurodevelopmental disorder with early childhood onset, whereas schizo tends to first develop in young adults who have no prior history of significant psych disorders. In fact, if someone has ADHD, they're probably statistically less likely to ever develop schizo!
I don't know where you're getting your information from. 10% of people with ADD/ADHD have psychotic symptoms. In fact, psychosis and schizophrenia is listed as being a common co-existing condition (study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16420713/). This is going to be the last time you hear from me, because you are giving information with no proof -- and honestly, it seems to me like you're the one who is picking a side.
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Old 09-25-18, 02:04 AM
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Re: can welbutrin make vyvanse weaker?

The thing is, I can find "experts" who will say that stimulants are amazing, and you can find "experts" who will say that stimulants are the worst. There's no central authority that manages these experts. We can debate all day long what the clinical consensus is, but I don't know if the conversation is going to go anywhere.

Stimulants are considered *the* first-line therapy for ADHD. That includes an analysis of the risks and benefits. Now, that doesn't mean that you need to agree with that assessment. Experts can be wrong, and you're free to express whatever opinion you want.

I'm confused why you say that you use stimulants, since you say so many negative things about them. Did you mean to say that you used to be on stimulants, or are you actually still on them?

Your theories on stimulants and schizo/psychosis are interesting, but if stimulants are as dangerous as you claim, then wouldn't the rest of the country have noticed by now? Millions of children are on stimulants, and I don't see an epidemic of schizo/psychotic children.

I promise to keep an open mind on these matters, and I hope that you will do the same. I have to go to bed now (better late than never!), and I hope you get a good nights sleep!
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Old 09-25-18, 03:50 AM
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Re: can welbutrin make vyvanse weaker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by day_vay View Post
I'm not painting it in one way. I'm giving you the honest truth. Stimulants give you focus. For about two years, until you have to increase your dosage -- and create more dopamine transporters that permanently effect your focus, memory, and motivation. Not to mention that at higher dosages, you are exposed to risk of heart disease (study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4992783/). Sure the focus is good, but it's temporary, and harmful in the long run. You want to know why I'm telling the truth? Perhaps it is because I'm honest. Perhaps it is because I took the time to educate myself on the subject. Perhaps there are people who die from therapeutic stimulant use. Perhaps there is an epidemic. Perhaps I've never seen someone endure long term stimulant use and not regret it. I'm not being political here. My intention was to simply explain how Wellbutrin and Vyvanse work together, and the dangers of using either of these drugs at such a high dose as the OP. You know, you can't use the "I just don't know why you're bein' so mean!" against me, because that doesn't mean anything if I can give you a link to a certified study.
You make a lot of interesting points but I too am confused as to whether you used to be on stimulants and have discovered this information and now want to warn others or- you still are on stimulants and have concerns for your own safety. Or you are no longer on stimulants and want to share with others why that is and why they too should come off of them. I can only say that I take and above average dose of stimulants. I was on the "daily recommended maximum" until I had my surgery in 2009 and that is when I had to go up beyond what the higher ups would consider normal. Those daily recommended maximums (I am speaking to adderall at the moment) are 40mg for adhd and 60mg for narcolepsy. Those maximums do not mean going beyond the 60mg is going to be awful and unsafe- they mean that based on the studies that have been done those are the guidelines of overall efficacy. Incidentally I believe most of the information about dosing guidelines for stimulants have been based on studies about children-not adults but I could be wrong.
Quote:
I'm saying that people with anxiety shouldn't use stimulant medication. It's simply not healthy in the long run. Stimulants work not only by supplying dopamine to the brain, but also norepinephrine. Do you know how anxiety is caused? High levels of norepinephrine are supplied to the brain, and cortisol too. If a psychiatrist gives ADD/ADHD meds to a patient that has anxiety, they should know that they are going to make the anxiety worse. I also think it's unethical to prescribe them those stimulants when there are options for ADD/ADHD that actually reduce anxiety.
Here is what I have going on mental health wise: Bipolar II, GAD,ADHD,PTSD. I have been a patient in treatment for these conditions for 17 years with the same doctor. When I started stimulants I was monitored very closely because of the bipolar and anxiety and everything went well. Stimulants actually help my anxiety which is why at my current dosing schedule I take my last pill at 6 and go to bed at 10 with no trouble. So to say that people with anxiety will get worse with stimulant use is kinda going out on a limb. It may be your personal experience but I wouldnt go so far as to say it is the norm.
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  #19  
Old 09-25-18, 10:59 AM
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Re: can welbutrin make vyvanse weaker?

moderator note

let's get this thread back on topic. here is the topic:


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Originally Posted by donio95 View Post
i take 150 welbutrin + 50x2 vyvanse
i tried 300 welbutrin + 70x2 vyvanse too

i always feel like wellbutrin make vyvanse weaker. it realy helped me, fix my anxious and insomia, but made vvyanse weaker ,i feel like it hard for me being focus on class.

what do you think?

if you want to discuss other things, make your own thread.

cheers,
-peri
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