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  #1  
Old 05-09-19, 10:49 AM
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Attention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

Well, I have been following this line for some time. So far, no answers, though.

There is a great deal of discussion as to what "attention" is.

The following video suggests some answers:

htts://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_wolpert_the_real_reason_for_brains?language =en#t-513439

Now the guts of this discussion is that the real business of brains is to produce movement, but movement based on the sensory input to the organism, with a view to maintaining the homeostasis (feeding and watering) of the parent organism.

The pathway involves

1) Finding a suitable target
2) Following it with one's eyes
Getting the rest of the body engaged with the right response.
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Old 05-09-19, 12:43 PM
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Re: Atytention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

I thought the problem with adhd was not finding focus but in sustaining focus.
We are easily distracted.
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Old 05-10-19, 04:54 AM
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Re: Atytention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
I thought the problem with adhd was not finding focus but in sustaining focus.
We are easily distracted.
I think that the more inattentive types can have more difficulty engaging, though for my money I easily lapse into inattention if I am on the tired side, or if i get derailed doing a complex project-- ie getting my tax in.
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Old 05-10-19, 04:58 AM
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Re: Atytention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

The talk I refernced above suggests a lot of what I am getting at:


The point he is making here is that the role of brains is essentially to allow movement, especially skilful and well planned movement.

So as a rule, our attention is focussed on considering input information, and what to do with it.

This starts to make sense of the association between ADHD, developmental coordination disorder and ocular convergence disorder.
The instability of the basic movement patterns greatly increases the attentional demand of basic activities.
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Old 05-10-19, 05:01 AM
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Re: Atytention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

Equally, mitigation of these problems will free up working memory considerably.

The point is that we tend to consider attention as applying to very abstract thinking, whereas in truth it is more mundane.
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Old 05-10-19, 05:14 AM
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Re: Atytention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

This paper sheds a little more light on the matter:
http://www.academia.edu/35808815/Sac...frontal_cortex

Abstract: A patient with a lesion confined largely to the right inferior frontal gyrus was found to be impaired on tests of spatial working memory and executive functioning. By contrast, his pattern recognition was good. The patient's selective impairments are consistent with the view that prefrontal cortex contributes to processes involved in spatial working memory. The patient was also tested on a range of oculomotor paradigms, some of which required the temporary suppression of a saccadic response. He was unable to suppress making contra or ipsilesional reflexive glances to peripheral stimuli on the anti-saccade paradigm, but his performance improved on delayed saccade, memory-guided saccade and fixation tasks. Although reflexive glances were observed under these conditions they occurred more frequently in response to contralesional stimuli than ipsilesional ones. Furthermore, the patient had no difficulty in performing antipoint movements with his ipsilesional hand. Thus his inability to suppress reflexive glances on the anti-saccade task is not due to a generalised problem of "distractibility". The patient|s deficits are discussed in terms of models of anti-saccade generation and are related to recent findings regarding the role of prefrontal cortex in working memory and visual attention.


Which is a long way of saying that eye movements consume working memory, and deficits in eye movements show up as distractability and working memory deficits.

When we consider that ADHD becomes more obvious in secondary school (where the writing demand is much higher) this makes a of of sense.
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Old 05-13-19, 12:17 AM
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Re: Attention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

Increased information uptake from the external environment (Doors of Perception open) - no working memory.
In the moment.
Working memory - I can feel a resistance to accepting anything into working memory (knowledge) unless it can be resolved into understanding.
Quote:
'Any fool can know, the point is to understand' -- Einstein.
To refuse entry of information which I can see is flawed; working memory is hopelessly overswept by the increased information access which the ADDer has access to.
There's too much information to store.


What would happen if drowning in a flood of information - have to work to stay afloat by resolving it.


So - the idea would be to retract from the working memory paradigm into reflection?

I don't work in real-time. But real time isn't real time is it ?
Just social convention - that we must operate through speech and not writing.

Why do monasteries often prevent speech and encourage writing ?

If we imagine saccades much like a camera set on 'burst mode' - then the number of images coming through in ADHD is far increased over the nonADD state.
This principle feeds back into KD's two threads on HSP.

ADDers really are HSP.
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Old 05-13-19, 12:26 AM
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Re: Attention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

The ADD mind needs to make sense of it all.
It's not a matter of being seen to be 'clever' - it's an absolute need to resolve information.
Why? Because we're driven mad by information which makes no sense.
Can all information be made to make sense ? Yes.
However - across the board - social conventions will be identified as mindlessly flawed.
Quote:
'If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.' -- Einstein.
The entire basis to social and medical epidemiology is to list ALL of the MANY MANY ridiculous things that human beings do to themselves which result in disease. Why would a species choose to knowingly kill itself, becomes the question ?
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ADHD understood - simple matter of defining purpose (morality) of mind.
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Old 05-13-19, 12:29 AM
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Re: Attention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

Quote:
Attention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

So - the point in life is to be happy within context of happy people.

If you aren't and they aren't - then you need to pay attention to why not.
When you are and they are - then you will have applied it correctly and will have sufficient.
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Old 05-14-19, 12:03 AM
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Re: Attention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SB_UK View Post
Increased information uptake from the external environment (Doors of Perception open) - no working memory.
In the moment.
Working memory - I can feel a resistance to accepting anything into working memory (knowledge) unless it can be resolved into understanding.To refuse entry of information which I can see is flawed; working memory is hopelessly overswept by the increased information access which the ADDer has access to.
There's too much information to store.
There is always too much information to store. "HSP" or not.



Unfortunately we have all been led up the garden path re "working memory", primarily it relates to motor activity. ( though typing, talking, writing, playing are all forms of motor activity.

From my recent reading working memory is consumed in holding in mind the initial position of the eye, the head and the body, and the position at the end of the movement.

The symbolic content of the written/typed material also uses working memory-- but that working memory is not fundamentally different from the abstract ideas of where the body parts are at.


Quote:
What would happen if drowning in a flood of information - have to work to stay afloat by resolving it.


So - the idea would be to retract from the working memory paradigm into reflection?

I don't work in real-time. But real time isn't real time is it ?
Just social convention - that we must operate through speech and not writing.
Talking and gesture are the primary modes of communication. In fact non verbals predominate.


Quote:

If we imagine saccades much like a camera set on 'burst mode' - then the number of images coming through in ADHD is far increased over the non ADD state.

The idea of "burst mode" does not really fit with the physiology of eye movements.
In ADD the eye movements are continually overshooting, undershooting or correcting. That requires more movements.
The real issue lies in the sensory mismatch which leads to us not actually "knowing" (subconsciously) where we, our eyes and our heads and neck are.



Ive drawn attention to this video before, but it shows a very clear inverse correlation between numbers of eye movements, physiological distress and competency of eye movements before and after neuro rehabilitation.

You cant get a plainer knowledge of the relevance of this model.
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Old 05-15-19, 12:20 AM
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Re: Attention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunga Dorji View Post
There is always too much information to store. "HSP" or not.



Unfortunately we have all been led up the garden path re "working memory", primarily it relates to motor activity. ( though typing, talking, writing, playing are all forms of motor activity.

From my recent reading working memory is consumed in holding in mind the initial position of the eye, the head and the body, and the position at the end of the movement.

The symbolic content of the written/typed material also uses working memory-- but that working memory is not fundamentally different from the abstract ideas of where the body parts are at.




Talking and gesture are the primary modes of communication. In fact non verbals predominate.





The idea of "burst mode" does not really fit with the physiology of eye movements.
In ADD the eye movements are continually overshooting, undershooting or correcting. That requires more movements.
The real issue lies in the sensory mismatch which leads to us not actually "knowing" (subconsciously) where we, our eyes and our heads and neck are.



Ive drawn attention to this video before, but it shows a very clear inverse correlation between numbers of eye movements, physiological distress and competency of eye movements before and after neuro rehabilitation.

You cant get a plainer knowledge of the relevance of this model.
Damn, forgot the link:

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Old 05-15-19, 11:57 AM
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Re: Attention. What is it? How do you know that you have enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SB_UK View Post
So - the point in life is to be happy within context of happy people.

If you aren't and they aren't - then you need to pay attention to why not.
When you are and they are - then you will have applied it correctly and will have sufficient.
So if you have sufficient attention you'll be happy.

If you're not happy, then pay attention to why you aren't.

Do you not see the contradiction?

It's like telling someone who is suffering from depression to "just cheer up."

Only it's not that simple. Nothing is that simple.
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