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  #121  
Old 01-28-14, 03:25 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by daveddd View Post
yes i think those are the primal things

rumination?
Yes LOL

rumination, that is the word.

a secondary process

thanks, I got to run, but I am really looking forward to discussing the topics more in the near future.




Thanks Daveddd,


Peripherals
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  #122  
Old 01-28-14, 04:20 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

you know this stuff well
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  #123  
Old 01-29-14, 11:50 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Edward Hallowell has written about Dr. Saul's book here.
From his description -- and I'm not 100% sure whether or not he's seen an advance copy of the book [?] -- it sounds like the text may be more nuanced than the title suggests.

(I hope so!)

Still, the title itself provides a quick soundbyte, and will likely predispose the media to play up that angle, and whatever nuance may exist will likely be buried.


Full disclosure: I met this Dr. Saul many moons ago (well before he was writing sensational titles), and he actually diagnosed a family member of mine with ADHD (or whatever it was called at the time). Go figure!
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  #124  
Old 01-29-14, 02:02 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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you know this stuff well
Better with yours and everyones help.


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THE FOLLOWING USER SAYS THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR INSIGHT.

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  #125  
Old 01-29-14, 02:55 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by namazu View Post
Edward Hallowell has written about Dr. Saul's book here.
From his description -- and I'm not 100% sure whether or not he's seen an advance copy of the book [?] -- it sounds like the text may be more nuanced than the title suggests.

(I hope so!)

Still, the title itself provides a quick soundbyte, and will likely predispose the media to play up that angle, and whatever nuance may exist will likely be buried.


Full disclosure: I met this Dr. Saul many moons ago (well before he was writing sensational titles), and he actually diagnosed a family member of mine with ADHD (or whatever it was called at the time). Go figure!
I don't care for Hallowell on the best of days but how namby Pam by can you get? That response is filled with all sorts of segues and distractions. Did he actually have a point to make? It got lost in all the *** kissing.
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  #126  
Old 01-29-14, 03:08 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post
Edward Hallowell has written about Dr. Saul's book here.
From his description -- and I'm not 100% sure whether or not he's seen an advance copy of the book [?] -- it sounds like the text may be more nuanced than the title suggests.

(I hope so!)

Still, the title itself provides a quick soundbyte, and will likely predispose the media to play up that angle, and whatever nuance may exist will likely be buried.


Full disclosure: I met this Dr. Saul many moons ago (well before he was writing sensational titles), and he actually diagnosed a family member of mine with ADHD (or whatever it was called at the time). Go figure!

Thanks Namazu,

Does the person diagnosed by Dr.Saul, still have symptoms of ADHD?

The title definitely promotes verbal medicine language debate.

"what are symptoms and what are signs"...seems to be part of the question.

While people suffering with ADHD, get lost in the debates.

I am curious to know how Dr.Saul subjectively addresses critical period, rapid rate, sensitive period of early development...

verses,

later adult periods of development, etc.


Or the neuroscience research link below, physically recognizing ADHD impairment/underdevelopment.



The prefrontal lobe impairment exists, and we need to have a way to recognize this impairment, for many purposes, as a group.

I guess that is why the words Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder are are extremely important to recognize exists?


Quote:
we now know that ADHD children are anatomically (and hence functionally) a bit deficient (~5%) in their frontal-lobe executive functions (Castellanos & Tannock, 2002). Quoted from The Archaeology of Mind, p 382
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  #127  
Old 01-30-14, 04:08 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by Peripheral View Post
Thanks Namazu,
Does the person diagnosed by Dr.Saul, still have symptoms of ADHD?
Absolutely, with associated life impairments -- the whole shebang.

I want to go up to Dr. Saul and shake him and ask him if he remembers my family member E...and to what he would attribute her very clear ADHD symptoms, if not a developmental disability affecting impulse control and executive function...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Peripheral
I am curious to know how Dr.Saul subjectively addresses critical period, rapid rate, sensitive period of early development...

verses,

later adult periods of development, etc.
Not sure -- I guess we'll have to wait for the book to come out, or some more informative reviews. From the press the book's gotten, I surmise that he'd say that at least some cases of pseudo-ADHD could be attributable to life circumstances or other disorders that arose later in life.

I'm less sure how he'd address early-life development, especially in cases where ADHD symptoms manifest themselves clearly very early on.

I do think he attributes some symptoms in some cases to disrupted or dysfunctional family situations or inappropriate educational placements, but I don't know how he explains most cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginniebean
That response is filled with all sorts of segues and distractions. Did he actually have a point to make?
I'm thinking (as related to Dr. Saul's book) it was this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallowell
My problem with the book is its title. It’s what publishers call a “selling title,” designed to get people to buy books. It is ironic, though, that a book that purports to tell the “the truth” (always a suspect promise) has, as its title, a blatant falsehood.
[...]
Dr. Saul does make a valid and important point in his book, a point that the title unfortunately buries: Different causes may lead to many of the symptoms summarized in the diagnostic shorthand term, ADHD
[...]
We must, as Alan Schwarz reminds us, do all we can to take care when we make this diagnosis and offer treatment. But we must not do what Alan Sroufe did and inflame the debate through reductive rhetoric, or do what Dr. Saul’s title suggests and walk away from the condition as if it were not there.
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  #128  
Old 01-30-14, 11:23 AM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post

>>
Not sure -- I guess we'll have to wait for the book to come out, or some more informative reviews. From the press the book's gotten, I surmise that he'd say that at least some cases of pseudo-ADHD could be attributable to life circumstances or other disorders that arose later in life.

I'm less sure how he'd address early-life development, especially in cases where ADHD symptoms manifest themselves clearly very early on.

I do think he attributes some symptoms in some cases to disrupted or dysfunctional family situations or inappropriate educational placements, but I don't know how he explains most cases.

>
:
I've long wondered about the results if a study were done placing young children with ADHD
into neurotypical homes. Would the NT parents do as well with these more difficult children?

And what if the NT children were placed in the homes the ADHD children had come from?
Would the parents there becomes less dysfunctional, able to be better parents?
.
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  #129  
Old 01-30-14, 01:29 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Actually, that's been studied. Quite a lot. But not with the switching - with twin studies, adoption studies, and in families in which not all members meet the criteria. The consensus of these studies is that if you have ADHD, it doesn't matter where you grow up or go to school or whatever. All they show is that children who are given better tools and more acceptance are able to cope with or compensate for their symptoms better. They still have ADHD, they just don't have ADHD that ruins their lives.
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  #130  
Old 01-30-14, 01:33 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Actually, that's been studied. Quite a lot. But not with the switching - with twin studies, adoption studies, and in families in which not all members meet the criteria. The consensus of these studies is that if you have ADHD, it doesn't matter where you grow up or go to school or whatever. All they show is that children who are given better tools and more acceptance are able to cope with or compensate for their symptoms better. They still have ADHD, they just don't have ADHD that ruins their lives.
id like to find the key difference between adhd and adhd that ruins lives

after birth don't women make some brain chemical to bond with the new babies?

i wonder if the chemical stuff makes the adhd worse
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  #131  
Old 01-30-14, 03:15 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Actually, that's been studied. Quite a lot. But not with the switching - with twin studies, adoption studies, and in families in which not all members meet the criteria. The consensus of these studies is that if you have ADHD, it doesn't matter where you grow up or go to school or whatever. All they show is that children who are given better tools and more acceptance are able to cope with or compensate for their symptoms better. They still have ADHD, they just don't have ADHD that ruins their lives.
That's not exactly what I was getting at though. I'm curious about the other side.

I absolutely know it's easier to parent NT kids than kids with ADHD or Autism or Bipolar.

I just wondered if there were any studies or research on that side of it.

This whole idea that poor parenting may actually cause ADHD seems to be very backwards to me.

Difficult kids make it harder to be a good parent.
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  #132  
Old 01-30-14, 03:21 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
That's not exactly what I was getting at though. I'm curious about the other side.

I absolutely know it's easier to parent NT kids than kids with ADHD or Autism or Bipolar.

I just wondered if there were any studies or research on that side of it.

This whole idea that poor parenting may actually cause ADHD seems to be very backwards to me.

Difficult kids make it harder to be a good parent.
according to my doctor its pretty much bidirectional , difficult kid makes it difficult to teach self regulation
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  #133  
Old 01-30-14, 03:40 PM
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Wink Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Namazu, yeah I got that but what I see is he exonerated the author and it'a just those bad publishers who want to sell books. I smell cop out. It smells fairly strong under this big bus.
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  #134  
Old 01-30-14, 05:01 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

There's also been studies on directionality. There's no question that it's incredibly difficult to provide the perfect, nurturing environment for a child who's difficult. Especially if you don't have the professional resources available (physically or financially) to teach you how to cope.

Dave, ADHD is considered a "spectrum disorder," which means you can have almost no problems, or you can be pretty much disabled from it. However, this includes not only the severity of the ADHD-associated symptoms, but also the number of symptoms experienced, and the comorbid conditions that complicate it. You see it right here on the forums, where some people are chugging along, married, employed, more frustrated than anything, and other people who just can't do anything without help.
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  #135  
Old 01-30-14, 05:06 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

yea i definitely feel like the lower end of the spectrum

but i still wonder if there is a key aspect that devastate a life as opposed to the other end , just needing stims during finals

i know emotional regulation definitely leads to people being worse off psychologically
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