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  #46  
Old 01-07-14, 05:48 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Disease, technically, covers everything that isn't an injury. I'm trying to think of why we wouldn't want to call ADHD a disease when there are other conditions in the DSM that we do call diseases, and things that fit the models of acquisition, diagnosis, or treatment for disease that we also don't call diseases, and just can't figure it out.
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  #47  
Old 01-07-14, 05:49 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by Amtram View Post
Disease, technically, covers everything that isn't an injury. I'm trying to think of why we wouldn't want to call ADHD a disease when there are other conditions in the DSM that we do call diseases, and things that fit the models of acquisition, diagnosis, or treatment for disease that we also don't call diseases, and just can't figure it out.
i guess barkley would know the answer only
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  #48  
Old 01-07-14, 05:50 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Late to thread so commenting on earlier posts here...
In UK GPs dont diagnose adhd so when someone said something about the uk situation. They listen to you and tell you they dont know anything about it. They look up the specialists in their area and refer you to them. Usually depression/anxiety focussed service. After they see you as a patient they reckon you dont have anxiety caused problems but reckon you need an assessment for adhd but sorry we dont do that and noone in your area does. See your gp. Eventually you see one of a relatively small number of specialists who can diagnose adhd. Perhaps a better way than letting some family physician do it who really knows a little bit of a lot not a lot of a little bit like specialists.

Iirc disease is a chemical or biological cause to health problem. I mean bacteria, virus or perhaps a change to your own cells that is negative like cancer. Condition is where it is not a disease, but something is not working in your body the way it should. Syndrome is more for something not fitting in another category such as psychological conditions which have no direct marker to enable diagnosis, which is dxed by ruling out other things or by a well taken history (questionnaires, surveys, family being questioned too, etc.). Or something like the above anyway. Doesnt matter of course but those categories do have meaning to those specialists but not so much to us general population/medical punters.

My GP told me ADHD is basically when someone tests beyond a certain level that is considered normal. Whatever normal is. Guess she meant a kind of probability or statistical diagnosis. She mentioned a range or spectrum we're on, adhd nearer one end with the majority of the population nearer the middle. Perhaps if you are at one end of the range in the right mix if factors/traits/issues you have adhd, in different mix you have depression, autism, anxiety, etc. Guess you can have more than one syndrome/condition/trait too.

Of course thats only if adhd exists, what's your view? Is that doc right or wrong? Wrong is my feeling.
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  #49  
Old 01-07-14, 05:56 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by Mystery_man View Post
Paediatric neurologist Dr Richard Saul believes that ADHD simply Ďdoesnít existí and is being used as a mask for less serious problems.
Well first, they spelt pediatric wrong? Used as a mask for less serious problems... so people are inventing their problems so they can hide problems? I don't get it. "I can't see the board" = I should tell the doctor I have ADHD? What??? WHY WOULD YOU MAKE THAT UP?

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Originally Posted by Mystery_man View Post
He claims that ADHD is nothing more than a collection of symptoms and not a disease
Definition of a disease: a disorder of structure or function in a human, that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury. congratulations doctor, you don't know what a disease is...

But on a serious note, if that was all he was saying, (the collection of symptoms), many researchers have thought of this. ADHD could be an umbrella term, the problem is we don't know what causes what. that's why they are still researching it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystery_man View Post
ĎThe diagnosis can be an easy-to-reach-for crutch. Moreover, thereís an attractive element to an ADHD diagnosis, especially in adults - it can be exciting to think of oneself as involved in many things at once, rather than stuck in a boring rut.
Reality:
Many adults with ADHD have low self-esteem, especially if they did not receive help as a child. The problems and issues caused by their untreated disorder tend to chip away at their self-image as time passes. A therapist can help the adult examine events and internal dialogue that caused the poor self-esteem. From there, healing the wounds can begin.

Just look at Sarah Sweet's post on combined ADHD for how we feel about "being excited to think of oneself as involved in many things at once"

The rest of the article bashes ADHD pills, says the diagnosis is too broad, and then finishes off by saying not many people get diagnosed in the UK.. which is contradictory but it's the Daily Mail what do you expect?

That wasted too many brain cells to read that garbage
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  #50  
Old 01-07-14, 06:04 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

One comment interested me most, that was the age range adhd develops. Basically primary school. That was when I got the feeling things were becoming harder, my ability to take things in. I thought of it as my brain was filling up. Once I'd remember everything i read, I understood everything and got good school results without trying at all. Later it got harder. Leading into GCSEs it was all without having to try but downhill from there. Reading about adhd it seems to make sense to me. Even that age range for when adhd develops matches my case with a lot of hindsight.

So tell me ADHD doesnt exist, OK, I'll buy that. Just tell me what it is that I'm struggling against, call it what you want but find something that will help me. I'm not that into names of the condition(s) just on how youll make my life better. If this guy is right then great! Get me help for whatever this guy thinks i really have. If treatment helps does owt else matter?
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  #51  
Old 01-07-14, 06:06 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by daveddd View Post
i thought that was the thread idea, i don't know

adhd is just a set of human traits to an extreme

not a disease or illness
I don't think we have arrived at this conclusion in research at all. There are certain genes that are suspected to predispose you to ADHD or maybe cause it (not proven), some parts of the brain that are not working as they should that are suspected too.

Where does "normal" start and "abnormal" begin? We think it could be on a spectrum, like for example 2 SD out is ADHD or something...

If you want to define "disease" that's great, but I'd argue that just because there is an absence of disease does not equal health. I'd rather we talk about "wellness"- this is your overall health regarded to spirituality, mental health, physical health...

ADHD does not make you well, it leads you to the path that is abnormal to the rest of the population and predisposes you to a lack of wellness. It could very well be considered a chronic disease caused by genes later in research, as it is categorized as a neurological condition... or it could be just mental health...

Regardless, it causes chronic suffering for those that have it. Disease or not.
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  #52  
Old 01-07-14, 06:09 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

Hey! English speaker from England here. This article is in an English newspaper, we spell it paediatric here with the letter a. Therefore it is spelt right. Check out the Oxford English Dictionary as the arbiter of the English language in England.

One day you colonials will learn to spell things correctly!!!!😉😄

(Tongue firmly in cheek and no offence meant.)
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  #53  
Old 01-07-14, 06:09 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by Canadian Mess View Post
I don't think we have arrived at this conclusion in research at all. There are certain genes that are suspected to predispose you to ADHD or maybe cause it (not proven), some parts of the brain that are not working as they should that are suspected too.

Where does "normal" start and "abnormal" begin? We think it could be on a spectrum, like for example 2 SD out is ADHD or something...

If you want to define "disease" that's great, but I'd argue that just because there is an absence of disease does not equal health. I'd rather we talk about "wellness"- this is your overall health regarded to spirituality, mental health, physical health...

ADHD does not make you well, it leads you to the path that is abnormal to the rest of the population and predisposes you to a lack of wellness. It could very well be considered a chronic disease caused by genes later in research, as it is categorized as a neurological condition... or it could be just mental health...

Regardless, it causes chronic suffering for those that have it. Disease or not.
i wasn't talking about "we", i was talking about barkley, his model of adhd is the accepted one currently

i just figure if he is going out of his way to say that , very specifically , there was a reason

he is the one doing most of the research
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  #54  
Old 01-07-14, 06:20 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by daveddd View Post
i wasn't talking about "we", i was talking about barkley, his model of adhd is the accepted one currently

i just figure if he is going out of his way to say that , very specifically , there was a reason

he is the one doing most of the research
Is Barkley's model of executive functions the accepted one as well? In his book he states that other scientists conceptualize executive functions differently.

He also states that there are four different types of self-control, each one related to a different executive function.
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  #55  
Old 01-07-14, 06:21 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Is Barkley's model of executive functions the accepted one as well? In his book he states that other scientists conceptualize executive functions differently.
from what i gather, he is the most referenced by a mile

there are a lot of different views on EFs

a lot of similarities in them though
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  #56  
Old 01-07-14, 06:24 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by Michio View Post
How so? It isn't so much traits taken to the extreme, as an actual issue with how the brain neurologically functions. It's not an extreme of human trait, because a trait would imply that it is a sort of natural thing or something that could be controlled via willpower or making a change in your personality through practice. It's a simple chemical imbalance in the brain that is in need of correcting where ( if I understand what I've read about it) the brain simply doesn't properly transmit thought rom neuron to neuron. Calling it a trait simplifies and degrades it.
If you follow Barkley's theory on ADHD, it is a trait.
Quote:
AD/HD is not a pathology, itís a trait. There is an AD/HD trait in the population. Itís called self-control, and AD/HD represents the lower end of that trait. Just as dyslexia is not a category, but is simply the lower end of the distribution of phonologic awareness and decoding. And just as mental retardation is the lower end of the distribution of IQ in the population, AD/HD is just the lower end of a normal Bell Curve for self-control in the population. Itís not like pregnancy, not something you have or you donít. Itís a continuum. And they happen to occupy the extreme end of the continuum of a normal trait.
Transcript of Barkley workshop http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/showarticle/2054 page 30

If you don't follow Barkley's theory then it is a whole different ballgame.

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  #57  
Old 01-07-14, 06:25 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

even authors in the psychoanalytical view reference him as the most accurate definition of adhd (self regulation model)
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  #58  
Old 01-07-14, 06:27 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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from what i gather, he is the most referenced by a mile

there are a lot of different views on EFs

a lot of similarities in them though

True, there are similarities.

Currently very interested in his concept of nonverbal working memory, and how that facilitates vicarious learning (learning from other's mistakes).
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Old 01-07-14, 06:28 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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True, there are similarities.

Currently very interested in his concept of nonverbal working memory, and how that facilitates vicarious learning (learning from other's mistakes).
you have read this correct?

http://books.google.com/books?id=7c3...20work&f=false
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Old 01-07-14, 06:31 PM
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Re: ADHD does not exist according to Neurologist Richard Saul

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Originally Posted by Amtram View Post
Disease, technically, covers everything that isn't an injury. I'm trying to think of why we wouldn't want to call ADHD a disease when there are other conditions in the DSM that we do call diseases, and things that fit the models of acquisition, diagnosis, or treatment for disease that we also don't call diseases, and just can't figure it out.
It is mostly a matter of definition. I pretty much use the same one that Wiki posts.
Quote:
A disease is an abnormal condition that affects the body of an organism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease

Since I don't think ADHD is abnormal as such and pretty much see it as a trait in range of the normal human population, the Wiki one fits well for me. Others may differ

It is not a bit deal and there are a number of definitions of disease so if you use different definitions, you will get different conclusions about the term.

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