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Old 11-04-10, 04:05 AM
ChinchX ChinchX is offline
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Lightbulb My subjective Barr vs. Sandoz detailed comparison

Just gonna throw in my experience here, I had always taken the Barr generics since I started taking Adderall, around 6-7 years ago. I knew no different.

I took it from maybe 2003-2004 and the Barr was a great generic. Could not tell the difference from brand, and I actually looked for that brand.

That was then. Times have changed, and so has the product. Maybe when there was a little less corruption in the pharmaceutical industry they were cleaner and of higher quality? Probably wishful thinking, we known corruption began when the industry did but.. I have no other explanation other than something changed in the pills, or my body changed between that period and the second time taking it.

I took a break from them for a period of about 2 years or so, just really to see how I would fair without it and if I could maintain productivity without it. I did well enough for a few years, but then I felt the need to go back on it because of a demanding job that required fine attention and multi-tasking. I went to the doc and got a new script, got the same Barr's as I did in the earlier years -- or so I thought. NOT the same. I don't know what happened, but they literally made me so sick when it would wear off.

I had never experienced this in my former years with Adderall, ever. So something changed at Barr, and it wasn't for the good.

I read here about Sandoz being a highly recommended brand, but I called every "major" pharmacy in the city, and they almost all carried Barr. I guess Barr is selling them smack for dirt cheap, so everyone buys in.

I gave up on my search, and attempted to handle the Adderall again, a THIRD time, since I quit because of the side effects. Third time was just like the second... Once again, there was a space of about 2 years between my last time. You forget over time how bad it was, so I said I'll see if quality has improved and they're back to where they were -- hoping I had just been getting some bad batches. WRONG. Immediately quit again, and desperate for something I asked my doc if we could try dextroamphetamine, since I heard it had less peripheral stimulation, like heart stimulation, muscle tension, locomotion, etc. While I did have a minimally better experience with it, the side effects were still intolerable to a degree where I could not function normally while on this. Oh, guess what, the Dex was Barr too! They sure have cornered the market.

At some point, I had given up and tried to move on to less effective (but hopefully more tolerable Rx's) like Wellbutrin... but that literally did nothing for me. At all. The Wellbutrin was Sandoz brand, so I had high hopes for it. What a letdown. In all fairness, Wellbutrin is nowhere near as strong as Adderall, so I shouldn't have expected too much.

One day I was at my dr's office, and I casually talked about how intolerable Adderall was to me, and I don't know what happened, because it used to work great. She mentioned she took it. I re-iterated all the side effects and that I just couldn't handle it... either the pills had gone to crap or my body had just made some adjustment that was making me have these reactions.

She said she didn't have any of that with hers. I asked her what brand it was. She said Sandoz. Aha! I asked her where the heck she found it and she mentioned a mom and pop pharmacy that I didn't ever consider because it's sort of in the bad part of town and I assumed they would have higher prices than national drugstore chains.

After more failed attempts at trying other drugs, I finally said screw it. I have so much stuff backed up, I have had very important things to do and nothing, absolutely nothing has gotten done the past several months, with major consequences (like getting fired last week). Yeah.

So I went to my doctor, said I don't care, I've got to try the Sandoz brand. I never knew anything other than Barr, and I was hoping... praying that this would not make me so extremely sick.

I got the script filled today at that pharmacy. It was actually about 30 dollars cheaper than Walmart even (so, advice: don't make the mistake I did and assume little mom and pop pharmacies are going to have higher prices because they can't buy in such huge bulk as national pharmacy chains!).

I have taken the Sandoz (30mg) and I notice an immediate difference from Barr. Much higher quality IMO (to my body... too bad we're all different). Here is my side-by-side comparison for those who are curious about the difference (as I've seen a lot of curiosity and talk surrounding these two brands in my time here on the board, but I have never had a chance to make any comparison of my own to contribute).

Note: The last time I took the Barr brand was approximately 4 months ago, so this is based off of recent experience. I have not taken any stimulant for these past 4 months, so I say my tolerance for the most part has subsided, so this should be "clean slate" comparison, I feel.

Administration

Barr: You can definitely feel this one kick in more. It will make you want to get out of bed and start doing stuff. Some people like that kick-in feeling. For me it would give me a very mild euphoric feeling, enough to make me feel good about the day ahead. You could start to feel it sort of give you some energy and start giving you that urge to get out of bed and start doing stuff about 30 mins after taking. By 45 minutes in, you feel it in pretty strong effect, and that 45m to 1hr window is probably when you feel it peak in your body.

Sandoz: When I took my first dose (30mg), I noticed a little bit of that excitement feeling (not mental, almost like your spine having energy tingles?) after about 15 minutes, but it was very mild. I could not put my finger on any moment or time when it "kicked in" or "was in full force" like I could with Barr. There was no euphoria feeling, which I consider good, because I unfortunately run the fine line between trying to keep myself healthy and functional and fight my addictive nature. It simply transitioned into a more motivated mood, I felt the initiative to start going through my checklist of neglected to-do's, and that was about an hour after taking it. I felt focused and productive. I hit a little bad part around 1:15 into it where my thinking became more cloudy than baseline, and I had to think about things more than I normally would have to. I felt "slow" for short while. I attributed that to probably overshooting my initial dosage, and I probably had too much, which had the opposite effect. This went away after a short while, maybe 15-30 minutes.


Duration


Barr: For me, the duration of effects for Barr were extremely short lived. This is part of what made it so crappy to me. It takes an hour to kick in, then literally by the second hour after taking it, I'm losing focus and motivation... by hour 3 after taking it, I'm getting the "come down" feelings... for me, when all the nasty side effects come around. It made me quite depressed by hour 4 if I hadn't re-dosed. This is really unacceptable and honestly makes the drug quite worthless when I get only one true, good hour of productive work in before I start to get sick and feel a crash. This is what led me to addiction. It didn't start out with intent for abuse, but let's face it... when I'm getting so sick, my heart is skipping beats, I'm having chest pain, I'm freezing... taking another relieves those... for 2 hours, max. Then it came back and I would take another. It really became a dependence, because I took it over and over to stop my withdrawal symptoms. I even tried Catapres (Clonidine) to help hopefully subdue these withdrawal effects. Though it helped some, it was still a huge problem and led to dependence and taking a lot more than what I was prescribed. Also, when you crash and go into depression, you can start to crave that first little bit of euphoria when you're feeling so crappy. While I don't blame the drug for my addictive behavior, I would warn people with addictive tendencies to stay away from Barr brand. So in summary... a 30mg pill would work for 1-2 hours, then make me extremely sick, like I was coming off of some dirty crank or something. If I graphed the physical experience of what this drug felt like, it would look like an inverted V. Straight up, straight down. Hate that.

Sandoz: The duration of effect for this brand is impressively long lasting to me. After experiencing the Barr 2 hour power for so long, this is what I was used to. While I have to consider this is the first day, we all know the first day it lasts longer, so take that into mind as a factor, but a 30mg dose had lasting effects for 6 hours before I started to feel the tell-tale signs of it wearing off (getting hungry, feeling less energized, not as focused and clear headed). To me, that is impressive. Even if we consider the first day thing, I say subtracting 2 hours from the duration in later days... that still leaves me with 4 hours... which exactly how long adderall is supposed to last. I feel this, if graphed would look more like a half-circle or a very smooth bell curve.


Termination

Barr: Wicked withdrawal. Quick onset of troubling symptoms. Real physical hell. As mentioned earlier, it seems like as soon as I felt it kick in, an hour later, it was gone. Useless. Oh, but it's not gone, it comes back with a vengeance, in altered form. Here is an abbreviated list of symptoms I experienced after every dose: stabbing pain all along the underside of my ribcage and general abdomen muscle cramping, heart palpitations/skipped beats paired with sharp chest pain in the heart area, the kind that really worries you, especially when it starts radiating into your shoulder and arm like they say a heart attack feels like? Mildly concerning, to say the least. Very rapid heartbeat, but soft pulse. Depressed mood. Energy crash, taking with it motivation and focus. The only focus is on if this was the time that I was going to have to go to the ER or call 911. I would also become very cold, even when it was hot in the room. Just an internal chill, especially in the extremities -- which at times, the vasoconstriction it caused went so far as cyanosis (hands/feet turning a bluish/purple tinge... kinda scary when your extremities turn blue). Is 1 hour of productivity worth a heart attack at worst, and extreme discomfort and anxiety from the symptoms at best? Not for me, I will never take this brand again. They made a quality product 6 or 7 years ago, but what they have made for the last several years feels like I'm putting poison in my body, or taking a street drug. Very harsh. Very uncomfortable. Taking the Barr was like you were knowingly going to go on a bad acid trip every few hours.

Sandoz: Since the come-on was so smooth and un-noticable, so is the duration of the drug, and the comedown was just as smooth. The only way I knew that it was wearing off was that I was starting to get hungry a bit and didn't feel as focused (trouble placing more complex words), etc. Overall, night and day from the Barr experience. There's not a whole lot to say about the wear-off on this. That's how it should be. I should be taking my doses based on a regular, spaced schedule... not every 2 hours because I'm terrified I'm about to have a heart attack.


I will follow up as the days go on to report any changes in effectiveness, side effects, experience, etc... since as mentioned, there is somewhat of a possibility for a bias since it is only based on one day's experience. I can say this, though. Barr generic did that to me my first day. So it reared its ugly head immediately. I suggest you stay away from this bathtub crank.

Finally, I realize that everyone's body is different, and my experience is subjective and personal. Barr brand may work like a miracle with absolutely no side effects in someone else. I'm still trying to find someone else, but... I'll be fair.


And for those who wish to discuss, I have a thought/question that I could use some input on...

Pertaining to the Barr generic and my reaction/experience with it, I have two theories, both equally as plausible... and I have never been able to reach a decision on it. What do you think?

1) The Barr was cheap, with lower levels of the active ingredient, mostly filler and other crap... which caused the extremely short duration and subsequent crash with the troublesome "withdrawal effects".

or

2) The Barr was actually higher quality, and had a higher amount of the active ingredient, and the experience that I had was not because of withdrawal at all, it was from the drug's levels still rising in my body, slowly making the effects stronger and stronger, and what I was experiencing were actually "side effects/symptoms" of too high of a dosage.

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  #2  
Old 11-17-10, 11:40 AM
CognitionFreak CognitionFreak is offline
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Re: My subjective Barr vs. Sandoz detailed comparison

GREAT JOB, Sir. Thank you - I like your methodical approach (go for Ph.D. :-) )!

Unfortunately, I cannot post anything useful as I am inexperienced here tried only brand. I hope to con my doc to give me Adderall IR and of course I will start with Sandoz. I guess there is a huge number of similar stories - you just systematized and described in details, feature by feature - Cool.
I would love to read similar comparison with Brand name, so if somebody is experienced enough plz-e-e-e-e-z, write a comparison with brand of either generic form or both if you tried all three.
-----
I remembered my experience with Brand - that was the happiest month in my life. What I especially liked about brand name is MOTIVATION and particular motivation for constructive activity.

I programmed even during lunch holding my laptop on knees, I was very disappointed when somebody interrupted me. When my girlfriend took me out, with scandals - I wrote my C# code on napkins... I ran to the bathroom as fast as I can, just for minimize the waste of time - it's not very sociable, but who cares :-).

However, my doc did share my excitement.... and he suggested Vyvanse - it was much more expensive - though useless. Yes, I felt it, but it was similar to caffeinated pills - just energy. They took out from vyvance exactly the thing I needed the most.
---
Yea-a, I could still program but my thoughts are with me : "who will win the next elections?", "war between USA and China?", "war between Canada and Russia for Artic", " mad genius of Bobby Fischer ", "M 16 vs Kalashnikov", "No Mosques At Ground Zero", "jihad works both ways" – and others… yea, with energy :-).

Now doc switched me to dexedrine - a little better, but not as good as addy and brand name dex is SO expensive. I would not mind to pay 300$ for my addy, but for "better than nothing" is a bit annoying.
I have to admit some negative aspect besides sociopathia what was not negative for me, and frankly IS not negative now.
For instance, this was the first month when I stop working out, for the last 10 years.

I could not keep to my pill schedule, so my girlfriend gave me a pill each morning and hided another one - and then called me at noon to disclose the hiding-place. When I was so "lucky" to find a bottle - I worked during 45 hours without a break..... eof month was really bad-d-d :-). So I also have this inclination to stimulants - which other people just do not - my girlfriend never tried anything - having everything in her disposal, even when she was really tired and needed to keep going. I would not be so-o strong.
But in general it was pretty positive. I guess Adderall Brand IR opened slightly an absolute true for me..... and it was opposite experience to my snow test - when you think that you have ALREADY become the man - "I WILL DEFENITALLY write my own compiler better than Java & C#", "I will, I am…… 300 lb bench press by....And 400 in a month, no – two weeks. Point.".
“Jesus, no more?????” wholly shirt, mom". “Mo-a- om, forgive me and get my pain away.....

No, with I enjoyed with addy hard work and methodical approach much more than the results themselves- so it was an orange, oval Edem's Apple. I got it and… f..ck, I am too bad and hell in my heart…….but I will not compromise anymore - it’s hard and bitter to be myself but I cannot keep this mask anymore. Honey, sorry I am not the person I pretended to be – think about other guy - I cannot make you happy. Lucifer, I cannot sell it even for French fries or peanut butter… no, no last times – your penalties are too high, I need it back pure.

- What I can offer?
-Take everything I have. No, do not worry dude, I know now how to clean it up - I will pour it with tears and sweats. No, I do not need anything – and it’s yours – you deceived me and got it for 0.99$ candy bar and 8gb ipod - it was not a fair deal – but I do not care and I am ready to sign it this time – just get me it back for some time.

No, sorry, I do not have time serving you and I will not serve to him as well. Take of my cross? Sure.

- What? I am your bad student….
-yeap, but I heard you also did not your homework well at school. At least I am not trying to get your place…. Ok, “sh&&t or take off the pot!”.
Great. Nope, I have my own knife – sorry aids around and here is my signature.

I have one advice for you – I guess you failed each time because of the lack of an adequate plan. Just improve your 1916 plan – you were very close.

-What? What’s the point?????
-Do you have problems getting up in the morning, lack of motivation , fatigue? -Dude, go to see your shrink - this is ADHD and remember never accept Teva/Barr, Brand or Sandoz only.

Good Luck. Just keep to a schedule and you have pretty good chances. Yes, he may send his son again……but that Nazareth hippy is just an alcoholic with bipolar disorder.

…and leave me alone both – you stole my 25 years, so let me live by my own and when I feel it’s time I will find you myself. Adias.
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Old 03-24-13, 06:52 PM
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cosine106 cosine106 is offline
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Re: My subjective Barr vs. Sandoz detailed comparison

(ChinchX)
Quote:
I got the script filled today at that pharmacy. It was actually about 30 dollars cheaper than Walmart even (so, advice: don't make the mistake I did and assume little mom and pop pharmacies are going to have higher prices because they can't buy in such huge bulk as national pharmacy chains!).
So I've been getting the Bar generic for a year, until this month. My local Walmart has generic (Bar) 30-day supply for $15, and this month I tried the generic (Sandoz) at my neighborhood mom and pop pharmacy for a little over $33.


I agree that Sandoz is definitively smoother, and seems closer to Bar than Vyvanse on the amph. spectrum. I was doing great on Bar for about 8 mo., until I started getting worried about my blood pressure and slowly tapered off my salt intake. Then, one night after working out, and eating most of a jar of lightly-salted peanuts, the next day everything changed.

I'm a college student and I was taking my first quiz of the semester when anxiety struck. The peanuts must have gone through me, because my brain couldn't find enough salt, so apparently it found the Bar salts and spread it around.

It felt like I was about to sneeze, but instead of a sneeze, something was about to eat me. And I was certain of it. Now. Now. It's here, and it's eating me. I could feel every single piece of my insides sending the most powerful messages they could: attack, attack, run. It felt like sandpaper was running through my veins, grinding through my insides. I felt like if I were to sit back and take a deep breath, that I would instantly die.

If you still can't feel it, then think of the most uncomfortable sound that you've ever heard. Go ahead, I'll wait. Have you got it? Now you feel it, pulsing through your heart. Vibrating through each of your trembling organs, run, run. Now multiply that by about 10,000, and that's how I felt every day for the next several months when I was trying to study or think about any sort of assessment.

So a few days ago I started on Sandoz, and it reminds me of my first days on Bar (which is pretty great), minus maybe 15% excitement. It works pretty well for me (the clarity was amazing for the first time in a long time), but I still preferred the intensity of Bar. Right now it feels a little like I need more Sandoz than Bar for the same dosage, to achieve the same effect. I could definitely agree that Sandoz seems higher-quality than Bar.

Last edited by cosine106; 03-24-13 at 07:04 PM..
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