ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community

ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community (http://www.addforums.com/forums/index.php)
-   Desoxyn (http://www.addforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=317)
-   -   Complicated Situation (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188835)

bothandneither 11-09-17 07:47 PM

Complicated Situation
 
I was arrested two years ago for distribution of MDMA. First offense, DF4.

Maybe a year before that I started taking vyvanse and had moved to (smoking) meth by the time of sentencing. I got 2 years probation. My tests came back hot and I said it was vyvanse and they let it go.

I was unable to keep the truth hidden (it was stupid of me I know, but who was gonna believe meth was helping my mental state dramatically?)

My probation was extended 6 months and I am totally clean now and will be terminated in February.

I don't mind waiting till then to try and get a prescription for Desoxyn but I'd rather not waste 4 months lying in bed watching netflix. I am and was severely depressed and meth helped. It had nothing to do with my arrest but it has been impossible getting anyone to believe me.

Any advice would be helpful. I'm pretty sure I should just wait till February which is ok with me.

Will I have a problem getting a prescription for Desoxyn? I'd rather have it legal and regulated than not. Will I show up on some sort of database? (once I finish probation the charge will drop to a misdemeanor)

I can't tell if the people posting here are going to see psychiatrists or GP's. Which ones are more understanding?

I can't help that methamphetamine pulls me out of my depression enough to actually be productive, and I know i've been a complete idiot in many ways, but it makes me even sadder than I can't get this substance that dramatically increases my quality of life. I doubt I'll be on it forever, I just need help to get through this rut.

bothandneither 11-09-17 09:04 PM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
*I was unable to keep the truth hidden (it was stupid of me I know, but who was gonna believe meth was helping my mental state dramatically? also I had no idea desoxyn existed at the time)

I'm willing to try anything else as well. I know both vyvanse and meth work but it doesnt have to be either of those. I'm already on 30mg Paxil and 300 mg Wellbutrin

Minkyboodle86 11-09-17 11:36 PM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
You probably wonít get prescribed a stimulant again if the psychiatrist knows you have been addicted to meth. Pharmacy's might not fill them if itís somehow linked within the system. I think youíre taking a big risk trying to go back on stimulants immediately. Addictions arenít just cured all the sudden. Obviously the stimulants you had been on werenít enough - they wonít be enough again if you use and thus the cycle repeats itself -an relapse. I donít know, perhaps if you were monitored by blood/urine levels periodicly/randomly to see if you had been abusing is something u could bargain. Good luck ✌🏻

peripatetic 11-10-17 12:03 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
i don't know the likelihood of being prescribed stimulants in your situation as i've not been in that.... BUT, we have had members here who've had addiction problems, including meth and cocaine, but who were/are effectively treated with stimulants. their psychiatrists saw their addiction as self medicating.

that said, desoxyn is usually a step after you've exhausted several other medications and i highly doubt a psychiatrist would give it to you straight away.

i have no idea if there are databases, but i do think that if you want effective treatment you should 1. see a psychiatrist, not a general practitioner and 2. be honest about your history. others may well tell you not to divulge the information you've shared here, but seeing a psychiatrist is usually more of a conversation than a monologue and i would answer questions as honestly as possible if you really want help. but realise that help might not come in the form you think is the "right" form; i.e. maybe the psychiatrist will try something other than a stimulant...have you been diagnosed with adhd? it sounds like you've been diagnosed with depression. is there a reason to think you have adhd or do you just think that stimulants are what's needed to help your depression symptoms?

anyway, hope that helps. x

CharlesH 11-10-17 03:08 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by peripatetic (Post 1971885)
i don't know the likelihood of being prescribed stimulants in your situation as i've not been in that.... BUT, we have had members here who've had addiction problems, including meth and cocaine, but who were/are effectively treated with stimulants. their psychiatrists saw their addiction as self medicating.

True. I've also known people who have the label of "drug abuser" permanently added to their medical record for all their future providers to see. I'd not a medical or legal expert, so I really don't have any advice to give here. Just sharing my personal observations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by peripatetic (Post 1971885)
that said, desoxyn is usually a step after you've exhausted several other medications and i highly doubt a psychiatrist would give it to you straight away.

Also true!

Quote:

Originally Posted by peripatetic (Post 1971885)
have you been diagnosed with adhd? it sounds like you've been diagnosed with depression. is there a reason to think you have adhd or do you just think that stimulants are what's needed to help your depression symptoms?

This is the most important point. The medications are NOT designed to get you high. They MIGHT get you high initially, but to sustain it you'd need to rapidly escalate the dose beyond standard medical ranges, and take them in non-conventional routes. It's not worth it. If you have ADHD, please get help for it, which might very well require stimulants, perhaps even Desoxyn. If you don't have ADHD, then your question is not appropriate for this forum. ADHD people already have enough stigma to deal with.

Unless you are currently going through life-threatening withdrawal symptoms from methamphetamine, there is pretty much no doctor (besides a pill mill doctor) that will prescribe methamphetamine simply for the purposes of pleasing you. You need to have a medical reason.

It's FDA approved for ADHD, narcolepsy, and obesity. As I understand it, stimulants are sometimes prescribed off-label for treatment-resistant depression, but it's generally frowned upon now in the medical community. And even when it is prescribed off-label for treatment-resistant depression, it's generally for short-term use only (giving a quick burst of energy to jolt someone out of a bad cycle).

I hope this information helps. Please do follow through with a medical/mental health professional - it seems like you want to get better, which is a good sign! In terms of GP vs psychiatrist, the psychiatrist is certainly more likely to have more experience with people like you, but every individual doctor is different. Some treat people with your history with contempt, while others will treat you with respect. Who knows who you will find?

sarahsweets 11-10-17 05:47 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
What are you doing to maintain your sobriety? I dont think going to desoxyn is good for you. You would be injesting the exact thing that got you into trouble. If you do end up needing a stimulant then ritalin or even vyvanse would be a safer bet for you. Do you have adhd? You should be honest with your doctor. I am an alcoholic and I have been on adderall or some amphetamine for almost 13 years.

bothandneither 11-10-17 09:24 PM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
I definitely was self medicating. Meth was never fun for me, it just made me feel normal.

I never increased dosage over the three years I was smoking it daily. There was always a threshold I would get to and would never be able to go above that in terms of 'highness'. Vyvanse and meth feel exactly the same to me, I just enjoyed the smoking aspect of meth. From what I've been told by a psychiatrist, this is how anyone with ADHD reacts to amphetamines. I made me feel like myself.

The psychiatrists and psychologists I have been to all have made me feel like **** for believing I need amphetamines of some sort to feel normal. It makes me really sad and alone. I dunno how to find a doctor who understands and doesn't judge me for who I am. I'm willing to try anything to help me get out of bed because right now it's all I can do.

I can maintain sobriety easily. I don't have to have it. But I want it so I can feel like Myself and live a normal life.

Thank you for actually reading and responding to what I've said.

CharlesH 11-10-17 11:07 PM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972070)
I definitely was self medicating. Meth was never fun for me, it just made me feel normal.

I never increased dosage over the three years I was smoking it daily. There was always a threshold I would get to and would never be able to go above that in terms of 'highness'. Vyvanse and meth feel exactly the same to me, I just enjoyed the smoking aspect of meth. From what I've been told by a psychiatrist, this is how anyone with ADHD reacts to amphetamines. I made me feel like myself.

The psychiatrists and psychologists I have been to all have made me feel like **** for believing I need amphetamines of some sort to feel normal. It makes me really sad and alone. I dunno how to find a doctor who understands and doesn't judge me for who I am. I'm willing to try anything to help me get out of bed because right now it's all I can do.

I can maintain sobriety easily. I don't have to have it. But I want it so I can feel like Myself and live a normal life.

Thank you for actually reading and responding to what I've said.

My friend, you are making life so complicated for yourself! Everyone here is giving you similar advice for how to begin your first appointment. Here's how it might start.

You: Hey doc, I think I have ADHD, but I've never been diagnosed. These are my current problems [elaborate], and I've had ADHD symptoms ever since I was a child [elaborate]. I think that if I can get my ADHD treated, it can really help my life. [if you are planning to disclose your history of substance abuse, this would be a logical time to do so] What are your thoughts?

Doc: Okay, let me ask you some questions in order to get a better understanding of you and your symptoms...

Can you see how this approach is different from starting the appointment by asking for Desoxyn in order to feel good?

You say that psychiatrists have always been dismissive of your requests for amphetamines. But then you also say that a previous psychiatrist validated the feeling of normalcy you got from amphetamines as a sign that you have ADHD. I'm confused.

If you need a therapist, then get a good therapist! Unfortunately, you cannot expect a psychiatrist to act as a therapist. A psychiatrist is the one who is responsible for prescribing medications, and their medical license is on the line, so don't expect the psychiatrist to be in a good mood if you tell them you have substance abuse history and want stimulants. Psychiatrists are also crazy expensive for insurance companies, so psychiatrists are often rushed for time, and don't have time to be extra sensitive to you. That's just the reality.

bothandneither 11-10-17 11:37 PM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesH (Post 1972078)

Can you see how this approach is different from starting the appointment by asking for Desoxyn in order to feel good?

You say that psychiatrists have always been dismissive of your requests for amphetamines. But then you also say that a previous psychiatrist validated the feeling of normalcy you got from amphetamines as a sign that you have ADHD. I'm confused.

Oh of course I wouldnt start by asking for desoxyn. I don't mind starting with modafinil or methylphenidate and see if those work but i can't even get that. I think i may have over explained in the past by going into my entire life. To me its logical but others tend to misinterpret my point.

Yes there was one psychiatrist I saw towards the beginning of my probation that prescribed me vyvanse but I was actually on meth at the time. I felt bad about lying to him and told him the truth and then he said he had to stop prescribing the vyvanse which made sense. I thought he would help me with the meth somehow but I didnt think the situation through.

I do over complicate things. thanks for your advice. I will do exactly that and keep it simple and go try some physicians instead of psychiatrists because I have only been seeing psychiatrists cause I figured they would be more helpful overall somehow.

CharlesH 11-11-17 12:17 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972079)
Yes there was one psychiatrist I saw towards the beginning of my probation that prescribed me vyvanse but I was actually on meth at the time. I felt bad about lying to him and told him the truth and then he said he had to stop prescribing the vyvanse which made sense. I thought he would help me with the meth somehow but I didnt think the situation through.

Wait, so can't you just go back to that psychiatrist and say that you're now clean [perhaps offer to submit to random drug tests], and that you'd appreciate having a second chance to take Vyvanse for ADHD? Did that psychiatrist diagnose you with ADHD?

bothandneither 11-11-17 12:51 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesH (Post 1972080)
Wait, so can't you just go back to that psychiatrist and say that you're now clean [perhaps offer to submit to random drug tests], and that you'd appreciate having a second chance to take Vyvanse for ADHD? Did that psychiatrist diagnose you with ADHD?

I have not thought about trying that. Yes he did. I do submit to random drug tests now because of probation, but it doesn't differentiate between meth and amphetamines. One at the drug testing place must though. I'll send him an email and see what he says. Great idea thank you so much.

CharlesH 11-11-17 01:27 PM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972088)
I have not thought about trying that. Yes he did. I do submit to random drug tests now because of probation, but it doesn't differentiate between meth and amphetamines. One at the drug testing place must though. I'll send him an email and see what he says. Great idea thank you so much.

Yeah, I'm no chemist, but there are definitely ways to distinguish between different stimulants (meth, Adderall, Vyvanse, etc), but those tests are probably somewhat more expensive. If your doctor decides that Vyvanse is medically necessary for treating your ADHD, then I'd imagine that your probation team would have the responsibility of administering proper forms of the drug test to distinguish.

Also, do you have any people in your life who can serve as an advocate for you (parents, partner, friends, pastor, etc)? Maybe you could offer to have the advocate store the Vyvanse for you and watch you as you take your Vyvanse each morning.

Also, at the very least, you already have ADHD officially diagnosed on your medical record, and you can transfer that to future doctors. Granted, the future doctor would probably also see your history of substance issues, but my guess is that as long as you can show that you're serious about staying clean, you should be fine.

Do you have the ability to access a psychotherapist? You seem to have a lot of emotional baggage (no judgment, most of us do as well!). They can also help you figure out how to best approach your psychiatrist. Make sure to get one who actually believes in adult ADHD, though. Also, see if there are any local CHADD chapters in your area.

sarahsweets 11-12-17 07:03 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972070)
I definitely was self medicating. Meth was never fun for me, it just made me feel normal.

I never increased dosage over the three years I was smoking it daily. There was always a threshold I would get to and would never be able to go above that in terms of 'highness'. Vyvanse and meth feel exactly the same to me, I just enjoyed the smoking aspect of meth. From what I've been told by a psychiatrist, this is how anyone with ADHD reacts to amphetamines. I made me feel like myself.

People always assume because amphetamines have part of what meth is chemically or their isomers in them that they are the same and feel the same. I guarantee you will not feel the same high from vyvanse as you would from meth. You might think you focus the same way but when under the influence of actual meth you are a poor self evaluator and cant possibly see how the two could be different. Plus meth is made with dirty chemicals and in someone's house, not a lab with medical and safety standards so no two doses of street meth will ever be the same.
Quote:

The psychiatrists and psychologists I have been to all have made me feel like **** for believing I need amphetamines of some sort to feel normal. It makes me really sad and alone. I dunno how to find a doctor who understands and doesn't judge me for who I am. I'm willing to try anything to help me get out of bed because right now it's all I can do.

I can maintain sobriety easily. I don't have to have it. But I want it so I can feel like Myself and live a normal life.
Sobriety isnt about not having to have a drug, its about not wanting it as well. Even though you say you have adhd and all,you are seeking the pharmocological equivalent of what you took on the streets. Thats drug seeking and thats trying to justify or at least excuse the use of meth.

I have no doubt that people with adhd self medicate-I did and I became an alcoholic who is sober now. But you cant use your drug use as a ruler to gauge what a med's effectiveness will be or what drug you would need.

bothandneither 11-12-17 06:52 PM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
@sarahsweets

I dont wanna be mean or start an argument so.......assumptions make an *** out of........the end.

bothandneither 11-12-17 07:03 PM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
@CharlesH

Yup I live with my parents right now trying to get my life together so they will be able to keep an eye on me. Ill definitely bring that up.

I do have tons of emotional baggage, but I know why and have talked about it to death. What I need more than anything right now is energy, clarity and focus so I can be productive as my lack of career weighs on me more than anything.

Thanks again for the oodles of good advice.

CharlesH 11-12-17 11:13 PM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972525)
@sarahsweets

I dont wanna be mean or start an argument so.......assumptions make an *** out of........the end.

sarahsweets has a good reputation on this forum. It doesn't mean she's going to be correct all the time - in this situation, I think she's being more skeptical of you that I am. For online support forums in general, I think we normally should take the OP's word at face value, otherwise it's just too difficult to give meaningful advice if we're always busy second guessing each other. On the other hand, I can see why it can be difficult for people with substance abuse history to be accurate self-evaluators. She has personal experience with substance abuse, whereas I don't.

What I can say with more certainty is that medical research consistently shows that people who take stimulants for the purposes of treating ADHD are able to stay on consistent, reasonable dosages. People who take stimulants in order to get and remain high constantly need to increase their dosages to unreasonably high dosages, and they abuse the route of administration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972527)
@CharlesH

Yup I live with my parents right now trying to get my life together so they will be able to keep an eye on me. Ill definitely bring that up.

I do have tons of emotional baggage, but I know why and have talked about it to death. What I need more than anything right now is energy, clarity and focus so I can be productive as my lack of career weighs on me more than anything.

Thanks again for the oodles of good advice.

Just remember that life is a marathon, not a sprint! Your parents can be a good source of support and, most importantly, accountability (which people with ADHD really need). With the psychiatrist, focus on how ADHD is impacting your life (work, school, personal relations, self-care, etc), why you think medication will help your ADHD and improve your life, and why he should be able to trust you and hold you accountable with medication. I know it's frustrating for you, but remember that you're asking him to take a big risk in terms of his professional liability. Keep us updated :)

bothandneither 11-13-17 12:20 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
My problem with sarahsweet's post is the problem I have with most everyone around me. They are telling me how I feel. There's other issues too but there's no need to go into it.

My self-awareness level is fine. I dunno how to objectively prove that, but Im more than willing to take MRI's and do cognitive testing for any doctor if necessary and have said this many times to those around me.

I can prove this kinda but won't do it here. My dosage of methamphetamine was always consistent and never increased over the three years I did it.

There's the thread 'the holy grail, deoxsyn journal'. His experience is exactly mine. The 'high' is barely perceptible, It makes me feel like me, and gives me the energy to participate in life and not feel constantly repressed. I think I said this already, but it was never about fun, only about normalcy. I hate so much that right now I can barely move and can't concentrate on anything. It makes my depression even worse. I want to be productive and love life so much but I can't. It's impossible to describe why I can't right now, I just can't. It's hellish.

aeon 11-13-17 02:03 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
bothandneither, I'll take you at your word.

Years ago, I was a self-medicator. Amphetamine wasn't my drug of choice, but I tried both (pharmaceutical) Dexedrine and Desoxyn, and ironically, did not like them. That was years before my ADHD diagnosis.

I will just say this...be open and honest with your doctor about your choices, and what motivated them, and your experiences.

Don't go in asking for any medication, least of all Desoxyn.

The goal is your well-being. Medication may be part of that, and indeed, likely will be. At this point, however, allow a clinician the opportunity to evaluate your situation with as much information as possible, and make decisions based on that.

And if that doesn't work right out of the gate, that's okay. You'll give feedback and things will be adjusted. It is beneficial to develop a long-term relationship with a clinician.

I did and I've never been on such a good course of treatment in my life, despite my decade-plus of drug use and abuse.


Cheers,
Ian

CharlesH 11-13-17 02:39 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972548)
My problem with sarahsweet's post is the problem I have with most everyone around me. They are telling me how I feel. There's other issues too but there's no need to go into it.

We all have a natural need to feel validated by others, and it must be frustrating to you when others don't believe you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972548)
My self-awareness level is fine. I dunno how to objectively prove that, but Im more than willing to take MRI's and do cognitive testing for any doctor if necessary and have said this many times to those around me.

I can prove this kinda but won't do it here. My dosage of methamphetamine was always consistent and never increased over the three years I did it.

Yeah, it's probably best to not post too many personal details about illicit use. If it matters to you, I think that the account that you've provided makes sense. None of us can know 100% that you're telling the truth, but what you're saying seems consistent with someone who was self-medicating for ADHD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972548)
There's the thread 'the holy grail, deoxsyn journal'. His experience is exactly mine. The 'high' is barely perceptible, It makes me feel like me, and gives me the energy to participate in life and not feel constantly repressed. I think I said this already, but it was never about fun, only about normalcy. I hate so much that right now I can barely move and can't concentrate on anything. It makes my depression even worse. I want to be productive and love life so much but I can't. It's impossible to describe why I can't right now, I just can't. It's hellish.

Your psychiatrist diagnosed you with ADHD, which means that he recognizes that ADHD significantly impairs your life functioning in at least two different settings. He prescribed you Vyvanse, so he recognizes that Vyvanse can be an effective treatment for ADHD. My guess is that he would be okay with prescribing you Vyvanse again, provided that you can show him that you're now clean, and that you can be objectively held accountable to take the medication as instructed and stay clean.

It's super common for ADHD to cause symptoms of depression. In that regard, stimulants can raise your mood indirectly by removing the debilitating effects of ADHD. In general, stimulants can also raise your mood directly, regardless of whether or not one has ADHD, but this effect is not stable, and to maintain the effect requires constantly raising the dose and abusing the route of administration. That distinction might seem subtle, but it's really important.

Just explain how your ADHD causes you to be depressed, and how stimulants that treat your ADHD allow you to be not depressed.

bothandneither 11-13-17 02:45 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Man that's a simple way to say it. I did email him on Friday so hopefully he replies tomorrow or day after.

I was just venting, but thanks for taking it seriously and offering further advice. I will definitely keep ya posted.

sarahsweets 11-13-17 06:11 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972525)
@sarahsweets

I dont wanna be mean or start an argument so.......assumptions make an *** out of........the end.

Look, you are the one convinced that you need one certain drug not me.

bothandneither 11-13-17 06:26 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sarahsweets (Post 1972595)
Look, you are the one convinced that you need one certain drug not me.

If you read my posts again you'll find that's not true.

CharlesH 11-13-17 07:13 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sarahsweets (Post 1972595)
Look, you are the one convinced that you need one certain drug not me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972600)
If you read my posts again you'll find that's not true.

sarahsweets - the OP also mentioned methylphenidate and modafinil as medications that he'd be happy to try.

bothandneither - How's your sleep in general? Lol at us, staying up all night. Unfortunately, chronic sleep issues seem to be par for the course with ADHD.

bothandneither 11-13-17 07:30 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Ha yup. Terrible sleep patterns. No matter what I can get to sleep till 6am. Tried melatonin and it doesn't work for me. It's terrible.

I'm gonna be honest and say I do have cravings for an amphetamine, but if I have all the symptoms of ADHD and if my dosage stayed linear (I know this was a backwards was to diagnos but I feel like its the strongest proof of my adhd), is it bad that I crave it? It fixes me. My depression and lack of energy dissappear and that's what I want more than anything.

It's hard to describe but I was just about to become the person I wanted to be and I want that back.

So is it bad to want that? Or does this sound like drug seeking behavior?

sarahsweets 11-13-17 08:26 AM

Re: Complicated Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bothandneither (Post 1972600)
If you read my posts again you'll find that's not true.

OMG I am so sorry. I totally missed that and got hung up on the meth and desoxyn. Its the addict wanting to keep it real in me. Sorry about that.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:52 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 2003 - 2015 ADD Forums